Curse

upier · Dec 20, 2009, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

It affects us if they fail then ncsoft would require subscription for all their games. Up to you all as to which business model you want to support.

So even though I am too cheap to buy them myself, unlike some people here, I encourage others to support them if they can afford to.

That just means you'll need to find a different game. Or a different publisher.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

Because some of us still like to play the game, is that so hard to understand.

To quote your previous post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

You can always be trusted to make an outrageously stupid comment.

It's exactly the kind of thinking you have shown that presents the biggest problem. Carebears swallowing all the crap A.Net is shovelling down our throats.
And all because you "like" the game.

A11Eur0 · Dec 20, 2009, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leet Tankur

Conclusion:
-If you want the upgrade, you buy it. If you do not want it, do not buy it. ANET does not make us buy them. Shut up.
-Running the game with no monthly fees is hard work. ANET is successful for that. Let them add micro-transactions. Pays for their bills and server costs.

These threads are getting very tiring. Please refer to the other threads about micro transactions. Thank you.

I'ma make a third point: these microtransactions are things that have been asked for since the game was released, or soon after. They kept giving us the runaround saying they can't, it'll take too long, etc. they KNOW people want them, so they figure they'll charge an exorbitant amount of money during a recession and hope for a few bites. Well, the first round of microtransactions were immensely popular, so that set off the next stage: costumes. I'll be willing to bet that there will be no more free festival hats, it'll just be costumes that you have to pay for. This game has gone from fun to a moneygrab, and people who actually care about every dollar they spend, which were the majority of people who got into this game to begin with (otherwise they'd just play WOW), are leaving. Myself included. GW2...nah. Sucks that I worked to fill HOM before these microtransactions came out...now I'll never see the benefits.

Longasc · Dec 20, 2009, 01:49 AM // 01:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Test Me

I just wish things hadn't taken this direction...

I totally agree to everything you said. They will have to offer a LOT of cool stuff in GW2 if they really want me to swallow ArenaNet embracing more and more into the micro-transactions model. The model is promising, but if often fails due to careless implementation and prices that are too often not really micro in the long run.

Daesu · Dec 20, 2009, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

That just means you'll need to find a different game. Or a different publisher.

No I dont need to play a different game as long as this one continues to be supported. That is the whole point of the argument, as long as people buy into the micro transaction, it doesnt matter if I do.

I dont care to pay for cosmetic upgrades but discouraging other people from buying them would be pushing NCSoft towards the subscription model to make up for the revenue, comparatively to their other money making franchises, like Aion.

Someone is right that NCSoft (not ANet) is testing this. If the subscription model is proven to be more popular and successful than free-to-play (i.e. micro transaction supported), why stick to free-to-play, why not make GW2.1 or GW3 subscription based?

I dont know why some of you guys seem to think ncsoft execs run charities. They would bet on whatever model is the clear winner.

nologic · Dec 20, 2009, 08:43 AM // 08:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by A11Eur0

I'ma make a third point: these microtransactions are things that have been asked for since the game was released, or soon after. They kept giving us the runaround saying they can't, it'll take too long, etc. they KNOW people want them, so they figure they'll charge an exorbitant amount of money during a recession and hope for a few bites. Well, the first round of microtransactions were immensely popular, so that set off the next stage: costumes. I'll be willing to bet that there will be no more free festival hats, it'll just be costumes that you have to pay for. This game has gone from fun to a moneygrab, and people who actually care about every dollar they spend, which were the majority of people who got into this game to begin with (otherwise they'd just play WOW), are leaving. Myself included. GW2...nah. Sucks that I worked to fill HOM before these microtransactions came out...now I'll never see the benefits.

o_O there will still be hats anet has never stated they were gonna disappear and they put up limited edition stuff, char slots just to give you more benefits look at any other game shops you have to pay for an xp pot.

Like any other company they want money otherwise you will not see any expansions or any new games in the future.

What do you want a B2P game and play for free or a P2P that you have to pay for every month that eventually will have micro transactions aswell.

No one says you have to pay for the stuff its on your own free will dont see why people are moaning about it.

Kaleban · Dec 20, 2009, 08:59 AM // 08:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by nologic

o_O there will still be hats anet has never stated they were gonna disappear and they put up limited edition stuff, char slots just to give you more benefits look at any other game shops you have to pay for an xp pot.

Like any other company they want money otherwise you will not see any expansions or any new games in the future.

What do you want a B2P game and play for free or a P2P that you have to pay for every month that eventually will have micro transactions aswell.

No one says you have to pay for the stuff its on your own free will dont see why people are moaning about it.

Ironically your forum name is "nologic" which aptly describes your post.

ANet also never stated they would use a micro transaction model *using MACRO pricing) but here we are, and they have.

Like any other company profits from sales are earmarked for future development. You'd have to be extremely stupid as a business owner to bank future development on "hopeful" sales of a business model you didn't even begin with.

People are moaning about it for the simple fact that the more suckers and chumps that buy into it validates ANet's spurious assumptions that the playerbase at large is all jolly and happy with their pricing and new busines model. When in reality the reverse is true.

By buying into this load of crap (I really cannot believe how many people I've seen in game with the costumes already) the playerbase is condoning what any rational person would see as insane. First, defining "micro" as $9.99. LAWL. Second, the more people buy, the more ANet's shaky logic is validated. Third, this mentality then transfers to the development staff for all future content, motivated both by sales numbers and the publisher "pushing" that kind of content on the devs.

The end result is that any future content will be P2P, and will eventually include content normally regarded as free (potentially even carrying into skill balancing and the PvP/PvE split) or necessary, and not just frivolous cosmetic enhancements.

The tl;dr version is that ANet is taking the worst of two methods; the P2P idea of subscription is combined with the lack of support and updates in a expansion-installment method, and you have neither GW or WoW, but something worse than either.

And for all those who cry for ANet and its poor starved devs who just want a hug, realize that they made a killing in sales with GW and the profits from those sales are what fuels development of GW1 content and GW2 development. "Micro (MACRO) transactions" are simply pocket lining for NCSoft, the development costs for GW2 are absorbed by GW1 profits. Its called re-investment into future product, which any successful business does.

I swear, the level of chumpery on this forum is astounding.

Mokeiro · Dec 20, 2009, 09:48 AM // 09:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

I swear, the level of chumpery on this forum is astounding.

I want to believe they are paid by NCsoft to create favorable opinions towards macrotransactions.

The Josip · Dec 20, 2009, 09:57 AM // 09:57

I like current system. Microtransactions that don't affect gameplay are good.

No skill balance is bad. Shadow form is bad.

Kaleban · Dec 20, 2009, 10:15 AM // 10:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

I like current system. Microtransactions that don't affect gameplay are good.

No skill balance is bad. Shadow form is bad.

Simple response from a simple mind.

Tell me, at what point do MACRO-transactions begin to affect your gameplay? Is it when ANet finally caves to the monster snowball they've started and offer PvE access to elite skins and armor via NCSoft P2P?

Or is it only when every bit of content in GW2 is P2P that you will finally realize that altering the pay method for game content changes how a game is played at its very core?

Cosmetic changes are "feelers" to see if there are enough suckers to support the feature. based on what I've seen a good percentage of GW players are total suckers, and will buy anything spoonfed to them by ANet.

The Josip · Dec 20, 2009, 11:12 AM // 11:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Simple response from a simple mind.

So you disagree with me and have to use insult to put yourself in a higher position?

Quote:

Tell me, at what point do MACRO-transactions begin to affect your gameplay?

At the point I decide on a case-to-case basis.

Quote:

Cosmetic changes are "feelers" to see if there are enough suckers to support the feature. based on what I've seen a good percentage of GW players are total suckers, and will buy anything spoonfed to them by ANet.

Using the same argument you can state that everyone who bought Factions and Nightfall is a sucker because those who didn't now feel left out.

If you want to debate about microtransactions, you'll have to come up with a valid argument. Until then, I present you the business model argument: profit is good. I present you the market argument: offer and demand. And I present to you the life argument: people don't live off air, they have to earn the money to buy food, pay bills etc. And, customer satisfaction argument: players are more satisfied, overall.

Solar AUS · Dec 20, 2009, 11:24 AM // 11:24

The simple fact is: You need to pay for a good game. One way or an other. While you can discuss which payment options are better/ worse, it will not be for free .... even if you wish for that soooo much ;-)

To be honest, I do not care how a-net is making money as long as I like the game. And yes, I want a auction house, hardware security token, great content etc .... why am I not playing WoW? I hate the graphics with a passion ;-)))

But thats just me ...

Test Me · Dec 20, 2009, 12:00 PM // 12:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solar AUS

To be honest, I do not care how a-net is making money as long as I like the game. And yes, I want a auction house, hardware security token, great content etc .... why am I not playing WoW? I hate the graphics with a passion ;-)))

All nice and true. However the problem seems to be that they won't work on an auction house and they won't work on security. Why? Because those updates although badly needed couldn't be sold as microtransactions. The silly costumes can. So they will work on more costumes. Simple as that.

Longasc · Dec 20, 2009, 12:36 PM // 12:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

Microtransactions like the costumes aren't the potential problem here.

The real concern is whether they will sell out and start putting content that affects gameplay in the in-game store after they sell GW2 and the expansions.

That problem is a long way off, but their past track record would suggest that they're absolutely willing to betray core principles to make a buck. (...)

You nailed it. They are trying out how far they can go.

The problem is, I am not sure if the feedback (how many buy the costumes) they get right now is useful. They will make a LOT of money with this. But I am not sure if gamers will like a game (read: the upcoming GW2) that might potentially be full of "micro" payments in the 5-10$ range right from the start.

The bold idealism of GW1 is gone - one of the main design elements of GW2 seems to become how to implement the cash shop for maximum effect. If micro transactions abound, active players are often better served with a standard subscription plan.

This is an unfortunate trend. For example, Fallout 3 and Dragon Age offer a lot of bang for the buck, but then they continue to milk the very core of their fanbase by offering sometimes not that "optional" "DLCs" (downloadable content packs) and other extras for "micro" amounts of cash that in the sum are higher than the original game cost you all in all!

And the horror is, I fell for this crap and bought it!

The Josip · Dec 20, 2009, 02:10 PM // 14:10

So? What exactly is a problem then - choice?

If I pay $15 each month for playing, what if I don't like additional changes? Nothing, I still have to pay for it.

With microtransaction, you pay for what you want. No more, no less.

There's nothing wrong with microtransactions if done properly. As a matter of fact I've played games where microtransactions in otherwise free game directly aid your stats and character strength. And guess what, it didn't make the game unplayable or bad! Why? Because of overall design.

As long as ANet does microtransactions in a way smart way, it's fine.

It's also amusing to see how some dont like microtransactions but like macrotransactions like Nightfall which actually imbalanced the game with some silly skills. And then GWEN. In the meantime, Prophecy skills were getting nerfed down down down.

Rocky Raccoon · Dec 20, 2009, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

That just means you'll need to find a different game. Or a different publisher.

To quote your previous post:

It's exactly the kind of thinking you have shown that presents the biggest problem. Carebears swallowing all the crap A.Net is shovelling down our throats.
And all because you "like" the game.

Your ignorance out does itself time and time again. If you don't like what ANET does why do you insist on hanging around and spewing your stupid comments over and over again. You must have better things to do, Last time I looked you didn't have to sign a contract stating you must play GW even if you don't like it. I choose to continue to play for I do not have the concerns that you may have, it's a game no more and no less.

DreamWind · Dec 20, 2009, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fril Estelin

It pays the bill of the people working in the company that makes the gameplay?

How does that benefit me again? There was better gameplay before microtransactions. (You also didn't respond to my other points).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solar AUS

The simple fact is: You need to pay for a good game. One way or an other. While you can discuss which payment options are better/ worse, it will not be for free .... even if you wish for that soooo much ;-)

Duh. Fortunately every game I have ever enjoyed was a one time payment (or free) with no microtransactions. Coincidence?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

If you don't like what ANET does why do you insist on hanging around and spewing your stupid comments over and over again. You must have better things to do, Last time I looked you didn't have to sign a contract stating you must play GW even if you don't like it. I choose to continue to play for I do not have the concerns that you may have, it's a game no more and no less.

Because whether you like it or not, there are plenty of people on this forum who don't play the game as much anymore but post here because they used to love the game and like to be updated on it. You can spew "you have a choice to quit or not" all you want, but there are a lot of people who have quit this game due to garbage Anet has done to their game, and THAT is the core problem. Microtransactions are just a small part of that bigger picture.

bigtime102 · Dec 20, 2009, 04:27 PM // 16:27

I really think the people in charge are just ignorant to the fact that there is PVE meta game, where things that are assumed frivolous and not advntagous actually are valuable and hold wieght. As in PVP therefore we cannot agree to the buying of these items with real money.. They must be only obtained in game by playing the game. Not by any cash shop. Its our job to tell this to anet so they become more senstive to this fact. Im sure they really dont want to turn this into a cash shop game and the reputation that goes with them.

They do however have the right to make money somehow and there is a place for certain things that can go into their online store that doesnt distrupt the game, however selling uniquie armor / costume skins is not one of them. And its our job to let them know how we feel. Yes, cosmetics do matter, therefore should not be able to bought with real money, not unless you want this game to be that kind of game. And I dont think they do.

Kaleban · Dec 20, 2009, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

So you disagree with me and have to use insult to put yourself in a higher position?

Nope, just an observation based on the content of your previous post. Rather than make an actual argument with some sort of reasoning to back it up, you just stated "stuff = bad." Hence, simple.

Quote:

At the point I decide on a case-to-case basis.

You're not very familiar with the whole concept of the "slippery slope" are you?

Quote:

Using the same argument you can state that everyone who bought Factions and Nightfall is a sucker because those who didn't now feel left out.

Nooo, for the simple reason that these two CAMPAIGNS introduced gameplay enhancements, new classes, skills, etc. that added to the gameplay already in existence from Prophecies. The money spent on these allowed my existing characters and new ones to play more CONTENT, not just look prettier. And besides, my argument isn't about "feeling left out" and crying and weeping and such, its about the problem of the MACRO transaction model, and how, in the end, it will latch on to more and more facets of the game, until ALL new content is via MACRO transaction, which is in direct contravention to the original promise and spirit of GW.

Quote:

If you want to debate about microtransactions, you'll have to come up with a valid argument. Until then, I present you the business model argument: profit is good. I present you the market argument: offer and demand. And I present to you the life argument: people don't live off air, they have to earn the money to buy food, pay bills etc. And, customer satisfaction argument: players are more satisfied, overall.

Sigh. First, are you REALLY going to claim that $9.99 for two costumes is fair or equitable, given the amount of content in a full campaign that $9.99 would justify? Just think, for the price of one costume pack, ANet could have introduced another class, hundreds of skills, five missions, several explorable areas, new character models for enemies and players, etc., etc. The Costume Pack is NOT a good deal, duh.

Profit is good. Really? Wow another simplistic statement. You know what's better for a business model for a company that isn't fly-by-night? Customer satisfaction and retention.

Offer and Demand. Okay, that makes sense as a statement that that is part of market economics, but you didn't actually argue anything! Some people DEMAND to stand out in a crowd, and ANet OFFERed it. The problem is, is there enough market demand to satisfy a large percentage of the playerbase who sit on the fence regarding the $9.99 price tag? And how will it affect those who perceive the ginormous price tag as an insult and cause them to seek other games who's developers aren't money grubbing jerks?

The "life" argument? LOL. GW has sold over 5 million copies at an average of around US$40, which is US$200 million. Any rational company with accountants will forecast sales and earmark profits for future development, unless as I said they're some fly-by-night company looking to make a quick buck. As ANet most likely isn't, given the development time of GW2, its safe to say that MOST of the profits from the sales of GW and its expansions (profit is all the money after operating costs including salaries for all employees and maintenance expense) would be funneled into future development, just like many companies do, as its the only way to assure long term survival and stability in any business environment. Expand or die basically.

So stop making simplistic statements like the ones you have, otherwise you just justify my earlier comments. It helps when having a debate to have even a small glimmer of a clue of what you're talking about, otherwise you just look foolish.

Daesu · Dec 20, 2009, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigtime102

They do however have the right to make money somehow and there is a place for certain things that can go into their online store that doesnt distrupt the game, however selling uniquie armor / costume skins is not one of them. And its our job to let them know how we feel. Yes, cosmetics do matter, therefore should not be able to bought with real money, not unless you want this game to be that kind of game. And I dont think they do.

No, cosmetics do not matter. If they do, I would have bought them myself.

It is fine if you dont want to buy them but you shouldn't discourage others from supporting ANet's no-subscription business model.

You want a good free-to-play MMO that is well financed so that GW2 would be released with excellent quality 3+ years after the latest release, which is GWEN in Aug 31st 2007.

ANet simply doesn't have the army of designers, developers, and testers that Blizzard has because GW's revenue is not even close to WoW's. It is stupid to demand ANet to have a new release of GW1 every 6 months while they are working on GW2 at the same time. How do you think they are going to get by from GWEN sales (from 2007) till the time when GW2 is ready?

If I am ANet I would say the hell with it and go with a subscription based model for GW2 because of all the bad rep they get from this issue, and they still need to pay their staff plus maintain their servers plus upkeep costs over this 3+ years between the GWEN and GW2 releases. At least the cheaper micro transactions are optional for game play, subscriptions are not.

The Josip · Dec 20, 2009, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

You're not very familiar with the whole concept of the "slippery slope" are you?

The slope threaded by the brave and virtuous? Yea.

Quote:

Nooo, for the simple reason that these two CAMPAIGNS introduced gameplay enhancements, new classes, skills, etc. that added to the gameplay already in existence from Prophecies. The money spent on these allowed my existing characters and new ones to play more CONTENT, not just look prettier.

Very poor. Buy BMP+costume and your problem is solved.

So your counter-argument is that if ANet offers it in one package it's good, but if it splits it into bunch of smaller packages so everyone can choose what they want - then it's not good. Very, very poor.

Quote:

and how, in the end, it will latch on to more and more facets of the game

Which you don't have to buy.

Quote:

Sigh. First, are you REALLY going to claim that $9.99 for two costumes is fair or equitable, given the amount of content in a full campaign that $9.99 would justify?

It is to those who bought it.

Quote:

The Costume Pack is NOT a good deal, duh.

Then bargain for a better one.

Quote:

Profit is good. Really? Wow another simplistic statement. You know what's better for a business model for a company that isn't fly-by-night? Customer satisfaction and retention.

Not so. For profit, sales are best. Not customer satisfaction. ANet isn't a religious organization.

Besides, on 1 unsatisfied forum "customer" (because you're only dissatisfied with what you didn't buy, so you're not even a customer), there's 100 satisfied customers who bought the costumes.

Quote:

The problem is, is there enough market demand to satisfy a large percentage of the playerbase who sit on the fence regarding the $9.99 price tag?

Are they willing to buy something?

Quote:

And how will it affect those who perceive the ginormous price tag as an insult and cause them to seek other games who's developers aren't money grubbing jerks?

If anyone is jerk that's you. ANet created a game that had a great price/content ratio over several years. Their product was worth more than people payed for it, judging by the amount of time people use it. Now, after several years that product is still here, but someone is still paying for bandwith, and as a reward for creating and maintaining such a good product, ANet has every right to offer microtransactions to receive bonus payments and they have every right to be rich.

You want a game with better price:content ratio, go find it.

Quote:

otherwise you just look foolish.

I'm ok with myself thank you.